By Ahmed Toson, 3 October 2010:
Peace and mercy of God
I like to ask, is the believe of the Ahamdiyya gamaat of Lahore that hazrat
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed to call upon God's revelation and that he continued
on that call until he died and that God punished the rejecters by plague and
God backed by verses and signs indicative of his charity peace be upon him
( if your answer is yes we believe in that )
why you say he was not a prophet ?
Regards
ahmed toson
By Zahid Aziz, 5 October:
Dear Mr Toson,
It is true that we do not believe Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to be a
prophet. If you believe him to be a prophet, please let me know how
you declare that he is a prophet? In case of the Holy Prophet Muhammad
(SAW), people accept him by giving the testimony:
"I bear witness that there is no god but Allah, and I bear witness
that Muhammad is His servant and Messenger."
Please let me know if you have made a declaration about Hazrat Mirza
Ghulam Ahmad like the above about the Holy Prophet Muhammad.
Regarding his revelation, please let me know the name of the book
(kitab) of the revelations of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.
Dawud (David) received Zabur, a non-shariah book.
Isa (Jesus) received Injeel, a non-shariah book.
So which (non-shariah) book did Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad bring?
Regards,
Zahid Aziz
By Ahmed Toson, 5 October:
Dear brother : Zahid Aziz
I have contacted with your esteem site to try to understand the disagreement
point between the ahmadiyya groups (quadian and Lahore groups )
While we have the same belief about hazrat promised messiah (PBUH) that he received
words from Allah ( if you have objection about the word " revelation "
)
And Allah sent him with a specific mission to the world , and he declared to
the world about his mission , and Allah punished the rejecters with plague ,
and Allah showed many verses and signs indicative of his charity and he is the
promised messiah and mahdy according to the words of Allah…. And so on
(is that your belief about him? )
Why we have to separate because of the nomenclature (prophet , mohadaas or mogaddid
)
About your questions:
Your text
((( It is true that we do not believe Hazrat Mizra Ghulam Ahmad to be a
prophet. If you believe him to be a prophet, please let me know how
you declare that he is a prophet? In case of the Holy Prophet Muhammad
(SAW), people accept him by giving the testimony:
"I bear witness that there is no god but Allah, and I bear witness
that Muhammad is His servant and Messenger." )))
Please let me know if you have made a declaration about Hazrat Mirza
Ghulam Ahmad like the above about the Holy Prophet Muhammad.
My comment:
I have declared in the biaa document that "" I witness that hazrat
mirza ghulam ahmed is the promised messiah and mahdy according to the holy prophet
Mohamed PBUH prophecy ""
However the prophethood was always had many grades ( Mohamed wasn’t in
the Moses and Jesus grade and so Moses wasn’t in the Juses grade ) Mohamed
said that "" prophethood has many grades "" no prophet like
Mohamed to the end of the world
Your text
(( Regarding his revelation, please let me know the name of the book
(kitab) of the revelations of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.
Dawud (David) received Zabur, a non-shariah book.
Isa Jesus) received Injeel, a non-shariah book.
So which (non-shariah) book did Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad bring? ))
My comment :
Hazrat the promised messiah had no shariah book ,, just he received news , prophesies
about the future , and a very good understanding for the holy Quran and he was
sent to tell the world about that ,, Mohamed was the greatest prophet from god
and his book the quran is the last god's words to the human
Many prophets had this grade like "" yahia ibn zakariaa ""
who had no book and was a prophet according to the Quran texts
So hazrat the promised messiah was non legislator prophet ( non shariah prophet
)
The important thing that he was sent from Allah for a specific mission ""
that is the definition for the prophet ""
Another example of prophets "" Harron "" the Moses brother
"" has been selected by Moses himself to help him in his mission and
Allah called him a prophet and messenger of Allah but Moses the one who received
the book from Allah
I hope to continue with me in more conversations to let me know more about the
Lahore ahmadiyya group and to correct my wrong beliefs if present
Waiting for your reply
Peace and mercy of Allah to be upon you
Regards
Your brother Ahmed
Egypt
By Zahid Aziz, 5 October:
Dear Mr Ahmed Toson,
assalamu alaikum
1. The differences between ourselves and your Jamaat are correctly
stated by your own Khalifa 2 in his book "The Truth about the Split",
where he writes:
[quote]
"(1) that I propagated the belief that Hadrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was
actually a Nabi;
(2) the belief that he was 'the Ahmad' spoken of in the prophecy of
Jesus referred to in the Holy Quran in Al-Saff 61:7; and
(3) the belief that all those so-called Muslims who have not entered
into his Bai‘at formally, wherever they may be, are kuffar and
outside the pale of Islam, even though they may not have heard the
name of the Promised Messiah"
[end quote]
See page 56 of the book on your Jamaat's website www.alislam.org.
Please note in particular belief number (3). It is plainly against the
teachings of Islam, and of the Promised Messiah, to declare any Muslim
as kafir. Your Khalifa 2 says here that even those Muslims who have
not heard the name of the Promised Messiah "are kuffar and outside the
pale of Islam". To read a full discussion please see the following
links on our website:
http://www.ahmadiyya.org/qadis/takfir1.htm
http://www.ahmadiyya.org/qadis/takfir-kalimat-ul-fasl.htm
http://www.ahmadiyya.org/qadis/takfir2.htm
2. You say you accepted the baiat by declaring:
"I witness that hazrat mirza ghulam ahmed is the promised messiah and
mahdy according to the holy prophet Mohamed PBUH prophecy"
All of us also make the same declaration, but we believe, as Hazrat
Mirza wrote, that the Promised Messiah is not a prophet but a wali and
muhaddas. In your declaration it is not said that you believe him to
be a prophet. How can you ask others to believe in him as prophet when
your own Jamaat does not require you to bear witness that he was a
prophet?
3. I was talking about "book" and not "Shariah". A book
does not need
to contain shariah, only revelation. The Quran has a large number of
verses which are not at all any commandments of shariah. It contains
history, prayers, prophecies etc. I gave examples of Dawud (David) and
Isa (Jesus). Both were within the shariah of Musa (Moses), and both
received books. Did Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad say that his revelations
are a book, like the books that Islam requires Muslims to believe in?
4. You should read our full section on why we believe that he did not
claim to be a prophet at the following link:
http://www.ahmadiyya.org/noclaim/intro.htm
Regards,
Zahid Aziz
By Ahmed Toson, 6 October:
Peace and mercy of allah to be upon you brother zahid aziz
Many thanks for your fast response and I hope to be a useful discussion for all of us
1- I have declared my faith about hazrat the promised messiah more than 2 years ago and I considerd that the quran as a unique source for all my beliefs ,, second , the holy prophet Mohamed PBUH words and finally the promised messiah words are the only two guides of my life so, any words or instructions conflicted with the holy quran must be rejected even if from the 2nd khalifa of our group however ,, our group believe that all people considered to be Muslims by the testimony declaration even those whose reject the promised messiah PBUH ,, hope that to be clear ,, however I also know that the promised messiah had been sent to be accepted and Allah punished the people who refused him as he did before with many of the prophet's nations , we have no rights to classify people into Muslims and non Muslims this is the god business
2- I have realized the disagreement point between us about the prophecy issue ,, it is a matter of idioms no more no less ,, so I want from you to get accurate definitions ,, what is the prophet mean? and what is the mohadess mean ?
And of course you have to provide any koranic evidences about your definitions and I am sure we then will finish that issue ,, the 2nd issue ,, do you know any mohaddass or mojadid was in the Islamic history and he asked people to accept him as mojadid or mohadas and Allah provide him with verses and signs indicative of his charity and Allah punished the rejecters by any way ,, just give me one example
3- Yes we have to believe in the revelation of hazrat the promised messiah as that words from allah ,, and he asked people all his life to believe in that words from allah to him ,, he was the promised messiah according to that words from allah
4- According to your question about book and shariaa ,, I will ask you the same question ,, did god provided yiahya ibn zakaria with a book and ask people to believe in ?
The god words to yiahya PBUH was a revelations not a book and god called him a prophet too
Regards
Ahmed
By Zahid Aziz, 6 October:
Dear Mr Ahmed Toson,
assalamu alaikum
The belief you have expressed in number 1 is extremely important
because it can bring about an end to the main disagreement between
your Jamaat and the Lahore Ahmadis. But it is your Jamaat and your
Khalifa who need to announce it. Just as you have written, your Jamaat
should also declare that:
- The highest sources of authority are the Holy Quran, the teachings
of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), and the words of the Promised
Messiah (in this order of priority) and if the statements of any
khalifa conflict with these sources then that khalifa's statements
must be rejected.
- On this principle, we (meaning your Jamaat) reject the belief
expressed by Khalifa 2 in "The Truth about the Split" that all
non-Ahmadi Muslims are kafir and not Muslims. And (to use your words,
Mr Ahmed Toson), we believe that all those who testify by the Kalima
Shahada are Muslims, even those who do not accept the Promised
Messiah.
The important question is: Is it just you saying this, or will your
Jamaat also declare this?
2. What is a prophet and what is a muhaddas has been discussed in
detail by the Promised Messiah. I give a few quotes below:
"As our Leader and Messenger [Holy Prophet Muhammad] is the Khatam
al-anbiya, and no prophet can come after him, for this reason in this
Shari‘ah (of Islam) muhaddases come instead of prophets.” (Shahadat
al-Quran, p. 24)
“I am a muhaddas and Allah speaks to me as He speaks to those who are
muhaddases. Allah knows that He has bestowed upon me this rank.”
(Hamamat al-Bushra, 1894, p. 79)
“I am not a prophet but a muhaddas from God, and a recipient of Divine
revelation so that I may re-vitalise the religion of the Holy
Prophet.” (Ainah Kamalat-i Islam, p. 383)
“The muhaddases are those persons who have the privilege of Divine
communication, and their souls bear the utmost resemblance to the
souls of the prophets. They are living reminders of the wonders of
prophethood, so that the subtle issue of Divine revelation may not
become a mere tale in any age, due to being devoid of proof.”
(Barakaat-ud-Dua, p. 18)
“I firmly believe that our Holy Prophet Muhammad is the Khatam
al-anbiya, and after him no prophet shall come for this umma, neither
new nor old. Not a jot of the Holy Quran shall be abrogated. Of
course, muhaddases will come who will be spoken to by God, and possess
some attributes of full prophethood by way of reflection (zill), and
in some ways be coloured with the colour of prophethood. I am one of
these.” (Nishan Asmani, p. 28)
“There is no claim of prophethood by me; on the contrary, the claim is
of sainthood (muhaddasiyyat) which has been advanced by the command of
God.” (Izala Auham, p. 421)
You have asked if any other mujaddid or muhaddas showed signs. This is
what the Promised Messiah wrote:
“We can prove to every seeker-after-truth, conclusively and
definitely, that from the time of the Holy Prophet Muhammad till the
present day there have been, in every century, godly persons through
whom God has shown heavenly signs to other communities to guide them
[towards Islam]. There have been in Islam persons such as Sayyid Abdul
Qadir Jilani, Abul Hasan Khartani, Abu Yazid Bustami, Junaid of
Baghdad, Muhiyud-Din Ibn Arabi, Zul-Noon of Egypt, Mu‘in-ud-Din
Chishti, Qutub-ud-Din Bukhtiar, Farid-ud-Din of Pak Patan,
Nizam-ud-Din of Delhi, Shah Wali-ullah of Delhi, and Shaikh Ahmad of
Sirhind. The number of such persons runs into thousands, and the
miracles of so many people are recorded in scholarly and learned works
that even a prejudiced opponent, despite his great bias, has to
concede finally that these persons showed miracles and extraordinary
signs.” (Kitab al-Barriyya, p. 67)
You have asked if the rejectors of any mujaddid or muhaddas were
punished by Allah. Yes, said the Promised Messiah:
“Then there are some other verses which show that God has most
certainly intended that spiritual teachers (ruhani mu‘allim) who are
heirs of the prophets continue to come forever. These verses are: …
‘We chastise not until We raise a rasul’… We do not send punishment
on
a people until We send a rasul.” (Shahadat-ul-Quran, RK, vol. 6, pages
352, 353)
You have asked if any other mujaddid asked people to accept him. Well,
one example is Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad himself! He started the
bai`ats in 1888, and the first bai`at was in March 1889. This was
*before* he claimed to be Promised Messiah. So at a time when, even
according to your Jamaat, he was only a mujaddid he started taking
people into his bai`at!
In fact, according to your Jamaat, he did not claim prophethood till
November 1901 through "Ayk Ghalati Ka Izala". So for twelve years
he
took people into his bai`at, and created a movement which he named
Ahmadiyya (in 1900), when he was still not a prophet according to your
own Jamaat!
3. When Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad said that Jesus has died, did he
ever say that these are words of Allah to me which you must believe?
No, he said I have to prove it to you from the Quran and Hadith. He
declared: "If my claim to be Promised Messiah is against the Quran and
Hadith, then even if my claim is supported by a thousand revelations,
and I show not just one sign but one one hundred thousand signs, they
would be all worthless, because no claim or sign is acceptable if it
is opposed to the Quran and Hadith."
4. Regarding Yahya, the Quran says: "Ya Yahya kudhil-kitab bi quwa"
(19:12) - O Yahya, take hold of the book with strength. Does the book
here mean the Taurat of Moses? No, because the Taurat at that time was
in such a distorted condition that the Injil was revealed to Jesus
shortly afterwards! The "book" of a prophet does not have to be
written. It means his revelation which he follows instead of any
previous revelation.
Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed to be like Jesus. Jesus came with a
book called Injil. So if he was a prophet, as Jesus was, why didn't he
consider his revelations as being a book of Allah. Your Jamaat
collected his revelations as "Tazkira". Do you believe that Tazkira
is
his kitab?
Finally, our discussion will also be of benefit to other people. So if
you permit me, I can publish it on my website. I will simply copy my
e-mails and your e-mails, without any other comment by me.
Wassalam,
Zahid Aziz
By Ahmed Toson, 7 October:
Dear brother zahid aziz
Directly follow the below link from our group main Arabic web site and translate
many declarations that you ask about, like the one that I sent to you
http://www.islamahmadiyya.net/show_page.asp?content_key=12&article_id=53
i will reply to your last nice E-mail shortly ,, but can you sent me a copy
of the promised messiah books and words according to your translations in pdf
format if possible , where I have tried to download from your esteem site but
something wrong may be in my laptop
Peace and mercy of Allah
Ahmed
By Ahmed Toson, 7 October:
Alsalam u alykom brother zahid
Many thanks for your efforts ,, I have realized after your last mail that ,, according to your beliefs , the promised messiah revelation and call ( daaua ) shouldn’t be considered to be mandatory to the believers where he was not a nabi nor a rasoul ,, if I was wrong in that conclusion ,, kindly correct me
of course you know the book " Ayk Ghalati Ka Izala " "correction of an error "of the promised messiah PBUH which contains clear and accurate statements from him that he is a nabi and rasoul for the correction of error for those said he is not a nabi or rasoul so he published that book ,, of course you know that and I read your notes about that book ,, however our disagreement will not come to an end by the words of the promised messiah himself , so I believe we have to sustain our beliefs about the promised messiah with the Quran where Allah said
" Hast thou not seen those who are given a portion of the Book? They are invited to the Book of Allah that it may decide between them, then a party of them turn back and they withdraw " 3:23
Kindly don’t consider me as a representative of the other group ,, just make it personal conversation and of course it isn’t necessary to convince each other ,, just we will do our best According to your last mail I will quote from you and tell my commentary and questions which you have to answer
1- Quote " The belief you have expressed in number 1 is extremely important … …
Comment : I hope you found many declarations from the kind
you wish from our gamaat at link that I sent to you ,, but sorry it was in Arabic
,and if you weren’t satisfied with that , you can write to the site "
www.islamahmadiyya.net "and ask more clarification
2- Quote " - The highest sources of authority are the
Holy Quran, the teachings of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), and the words
of the Promised Messiah (in this order of priority) and if the statements of
any khalifa conflict with these sources then that khalifa's statements must
be rejected. "
Comment " It seems you have understood my words in wrong
way I said that the unique source for all beliefs is the holy Quran according
to the verse " ayaa"
" Follow what has been revealed to you from your Lord and follow not besides
Him any guardians; little do you mind " 7.3
And according to the promised messiah revelation " the all good in the
Quran"
So every beliefs or words that conflict with the holy Quran should be rejected
and any beliefs should be accepted from the quran and because of that I have
asked you to reinforce your beliefs about the promised messiah PBUH " that
he was a mojadid and mohaddes " from the Quran and prove that he wasn’t
a heresy " bedaa " but you chose instead to tell the promised messiah
statements and which we believe that you understand it in a wrong way according
to the book " Ayk Ghalati Ka Izala " that already published in your
esteem site
So I ask you again to consider the Quran our judge,, the issue is very simple
, if the quran ask people in mandatory to believe in mohadasen or mojadeden
and promised them with punishment if they won't accept those mojadeden when
they declare about themselves so you are right but if the Quran never mention
mohadassen missions to people and just consider the prophets mission ,, so you
have to declare that you follow assumption " zann "
Remember Allah told us about what deserve his punishment in the days and the
world after " donya w akhera "
Again what is the prophet mission and what is the mohades or mojaded mission?
The prophet's missions clearly considered about in every paper of the Quran
e.g
" Say: I am not the first of the messengers, and I know not what will be
done with me or with you. I follow naught but that which is revealed to me,
and I am but a plain warner. " 46:9 Al ahkaf
" And certainly We raised in every nation a messenger, saying: Serve Allah
and shun the devil. Then of them was he whom Allah guided, and of them was he
whose remaining in error was justly due. So travel in the land, then see what
was the end of the rejectors " 16:36 Al nahl
"And (We sent) messengers We have mentioned to thee before and messengers
We have not mentioned to thee. And to Moses Allah addressed His word, speaking
(to him)— "" Messengers, bearers of good news and warners, so
that the people may have no plea against Allah after the (coming of) messengers.
And Allah is ever Mighty, Wise " 4:164-165 Al nesaa
" And certainly messengers before thee were derided, but that which they
derided encompassed those of them who scoffed " " Say: Travel in the
land, then see what was the end of the rejectors. " 6 :10-11 Al annam
"And messengers indeed were rejected before thee, but they were patient
when rejected and persecuted, until Our help came to them. And there is none
to change the words of Allah. And there has already come to thee some information
about the messengers. " 6:34 Al annam
" It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and
the West, but righteous is the one who believes in Allah, and the Last Day,
and the angels and the Book and the prophets, and gives away wealth out of love
for Him to the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and
to those who ask and to set slaves free and keeps up prayer and pays the poor-rate;
and the performers of their promise when they make a promise, and the patient
in distress and affliction and in the time of conflict. These are they who are
truthful; and these are they who keep their duty " 2:177 Al baqara
" So think not that Allah will fail in His promise to His messengers. Surely
Allah is Mighty, the Lord of retribution " Ibrahim : 47
And you can consider another verses e.g " Al raad : 28 – Al nahl
: 38 – Younes :13 – Al Israa :15 – AL Imran :81 – Al
nessa 64 – Ibrahim : 4 – AL hegr 10:11 - Al anbyaa :25 – Yaseen
30:31 – Al zaryat :52 – Al gen 26:27 – Al baqara :214 –
Al baqara 285 – Al imran :86 – Al imran 179 – AL imran 184
– al nessa 136 – Al nessa 150:152 – Al baqara :136 –
and Al israa 55 "
All the above verses provide a clear understanding that Allah used to sent prophets
and messengers for guiding missions to their nations and Allah provided with
evidences about the veracity of his nabi in many forms e.g. tell them about
the future ,, respond to their doaa ,, and provide with miracles … etc
and after the suffering of believers and prophets , god save them and punish
the rejecters
And also the above verses ask us in mandatory to believe and accept prophets
as well as himself and his books, and all that have been achieved in the promised
messiah mission
However , Allah never ask from us to believe in mojadedon and mohadeson, never
sent them to accomplish the prophet's missions , mojadedon never declared that
they have sent from Allah to the people ,, never people been punished if reject
the mojadedon ,, I have asked you to give me one example for that mojadid who
had been sent in a mission from Allah , and you answered only the promised messiah
,, that mean the promised messiah was a heresy " bedaa " that the
history never tell about and that Allah never ask us to believe in
If you said that he was just a mojadid or mohades , so his nation has no blame
to reject him because it isn't important to believe in him " option "
and Allah give no promise to punish the rejecters
And now you have to answer the following question
- Why Allah punished those rejecters of the promised messiah and why this promises had been recorded in the brahieen ahmadiyya books?
- Why Allah decided to sent the mojadeden to accomplish the prophets missions and change his habit " sona " ? do you think Allah may continue in changing his sonas and decide to come in the form of humans?
- Are there any verses from the Quran ask people to believe in mojadedon or mohadeson if declared that the god sent them?
- Is one from those you mentioned in your last mail e.g Sayyid Abdul Qadir
Jilani, Abul Hasan Khartani declared that he was sent from Allah and he provided
him with miracles as an evidence of his clams and Allah punished those reject
him or Allah will punish the rejecters ? the promised messiah mentioned those
mojadedon to give an evidence to those completely denied the staying of the
revelation in this oma ? did he said that they are his predecessors or he is
like them ?
3- Quote " 3. When Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad said that
Jesus has died, did he ever say that these are words of Allah to me which you
must believe?
No, he said I have to prove it to you from the Quran and Hadith. He declared:
"If my claim to be Promised Messiah is against the Quran and Hadith, then
even if my claim is supported by a thousand revelations, and I show not just
one sign but one one hundred thousand signs, they would be all worthless, because
no claim or sign is acceptable if it is opposed to the Quran and Hadith."
Comment:
yes the promised messiah declared that his beliefs about Jesus were due to the
god's revelation to him …
Q" By God, what I said a word in the death of Christ and not coming off
and I get his place only after frequent , and successive revelation , and after
a very clear Mkashifat like the morning light and after the presentation and
inspiration to the Koran and the correct hadith ……etc " Hamamat
ul boshra P 44-45
4- Quote " 4. Regarding Yahya, the Quran says: "Ya
Yahya kudhil-kitab bi quwa"(19:12) - O Yahya, take hold of the book with
strength. Does the book here mean the Taurat of Moses? No, because the Taurat
at that time was in such a distorted condition that the Injil was revealed to
Jesus shortly afterwards! The "book" of a prophet does not have to
be written. It means his revelation which he follows instead of any previous
revelation.
Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed to be like Jesus. Jesus came with a book
called Injil. So if he was a prophet, as Jesus was, why didn't he consider his
revelations as being a book of Allah. Your Jamaat collected his revelations
as "Tazkira". Do you believe that Tazkira is his kitab? "
Comment : if the book in verse "Ya Yahya kudhil-kitab
bi quwa" mean his revelations not the Taurat of Moses because the Taurat
was very distorted why Jesus after yahya said
" And when Jesus, son of Mary, said: O Children of Israel, surely I am
the messenger of Allah to you, verifying that which is before me of the Torah
and giving the good news of a Messenger who will come after me, his name being
Ahmad. But when he came to them with clear arguments, they said: This is clear
enchantment " 61:6
Wasn’t that Torah is the same distorted tourah of yahia ?
And of course you say the revelation to " yousuf , Hood , Haroon , Idriss
…etc was an book ? Kindly give evidence "from Allah of course"
According to publishing the discussion,, it will be very nice especially after
we complete it , but let me see it in the final form before publishing in your
esteem site
Peace and mercy
Ahmed